Which of the Four Great Novels should I read, in English?

I've decided to finally plow through one of these.  Not in Chinese, that's way too much, but a translation. Just so I understand China better. But which one? Long ago I tried to read 3 kingdoms, but got thrown off the plot by the sheer number of names in Pinyin. They all felt alike in my brain and I  had the brief horrible thought that the novel would be easier to read with English names for all the characters.  Why not Tiger, Rainbow and Tommy? I also got partway through Journey to the West but it read more like a manga than literature.  (hey, there's an idea...)

Hawkes and Minford's translation of Story of the Stone/Dream of the Red Chamber is rightly lauded and Hawkes did make an effort to give all the characters distinctive names, translating those of all the maids for instance. Very different proposition in terms of content to Water Margin or Three Kingdoms though. Arthur Waley's Monkey is supposedly a very enjoyable somewhat abridged translation of Journey to the West, but have only read short excerpts years ago in class.

I second Story of the Stone, almost my favourite novel in any language, have read it twice and want to go back to it.. But am ignorant of the rest, in that I had the same experience with the Three Kingdoms. I think there is a Three Kingdoms podcast fwiw, and I think there is a small cartoon version but cannot find it.

Not one of "The Four" (at least not anymore, although it used to be), but we're doing a 20-week course on 金瓶梅 starting April 29, taught by Brendan O'Kane who specialized in it in grad school. He'll be using the David Tod Roy translation. He's approaching the course as a "window on Chinese culture and society," so there will also be lessons on Ming history, society, commerce, etc. to give more context for the novel. It's going to be a pretty awesome course—Brendan is a great teacher. We're also looking at doing Story of the Stone with him after this course finishes, and hopefully Water Margin with another teacher coming up in a few months.

If you want to understand modern China better, I recommend reading the most recent classic, which is ‘A Dream of Red Mansions’. I've heard that this translation is quite good: https://www.amazon.com/Mansions-Chinese-Classics-Classic-Volumes/dp/7119006436/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1YU3WKOBSSBJ9&keywords=A+Dream+of+Red+Mansions&qid=1707803738&sprefix=a+dream+of+red+mansions,aps,435&sr=8-1. Times may change, but the mindset of people tends to remain the same.

As others say, The Story of the Stone in the Hawkes/Minford translation. Just start with one volume, you're hooked by the time you've finished it.

I had the same experience with the Three Kingdoms. I think I got to about two-thirds. There are some great stories in there, but I found it hard to get through. I've read (several times) and enjoyed a Dutch retelling of the abrigded Waley translation of Journey to the West, so that translation would also be an option.

If you want to dip your toe into the 四大名著, you might try reading abridged versions first. For example:

• Dream of the Red Chamber translated and abridged by Chi-Chen Wang
• The Romance of the Three Kingdoms , translated by Martin Palmer and abridged
• Monkey, Arthur Waley's translation and abridgement of Journey to the West
• Outlaws of the Marsh, an abridged version of Sydney Shapiro's translation

This is a good way to enjoy the stories and get the flavour of the books.

I hope everyone realizes that The Dream of the Red Chamber is the same novel as The Story of the Stone!

On 4/18/2024 at 8:59 AM, OneEye said:

金瓶梅 starting April 29, taught by Brendan O'Kane

We did a livestream today on YouTube (it's actually still in progress as I post this) about 金瓶梅, which also includes some info about/an overview of the "big four" 四大名著. Brendan's a great teacher, so it may be of interest to people in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cv-H9My5gc

I posted a few months back about my experience reading 'All Men are Brothers', Pearl Bucks translation of 水浒传. The story is quite challenging from a modern readers perspective, as it is morally eyebrow-raising and the 'plot' meanders all over the place, more than any other of the classic Chinese novels imo. I think these issues were only exacerbated by reading in translation. 

Well yeah, that's why I want to read these, to see what these different morals are.  Not to sit and  condemn them. 

Many westerners, particularly in literary circles, have a narrow view of what plot should be.

Translation isba chore, but I'll never read them in the original, and Pearl S. Buck is good by me. The Good Earth helped me understand so much. I continued with both sequels, and while they weren't as good like everyone said, I still learned a lot about families.  

It made a great impression on me when Wang Lung's father was sitting on the cardboard box in the sidewalk and thought to himself, I have a son, my son has a son, and afterwards did not trouble himself too much about the affairs of the world. I was like, wow! That's it! That is the win state for Chinese people.  It's what they're all working towards.  They'd like to get there in more style, but whatever.  Dad had what was important in life. 

Monkey sounds great too, and the 3 kingdoms with English names is an inspired choice. I thought I was a weirdo for that one.  Good to know someone was way ahead of me. 

Thanks for all the help everyone. That's why this forum is so damn awesome, the depth of knowledge of the members. 

As promised, our course on Water Margin starts June 11: https://www.outlier-linguistics.com/products/great-chinese-novels-water-margin-shui-hu-zhuan

If you're reading them to get a taste of what Chinese culture was like, I strongly recommend starting with Anthony Yu's incredible translation of Journey to the West.  Pay attention to some of the footnotes as well, but try not to get too lost in the archaic side of Taoism and Buddhism.  His translation is amazing, and reflects a lot of the color and joy of the novel.

Sadly, there isn't a good translation of 水滸傳; otherwise I'd recommend that book as well.

Three Kingdoms is fun, and I started my journey with the Moss Roberts translation about 20 years ago.  However, it can be confusing.  Heck, the Chinese original can be confusing: you'll find yourself forgetting who is on whose side once you're 90 chapters in or so.

Dream of the Red Chamber (or Story of the Stone) is a bit more daunting — you should probably wait until you're a bit more familiar with the culture and some of its literature before you dig into that.  If you get into the Chinese text, it turns into a type of neverending story — a long and deep text that you'll likely never fully dig your way out of.

I recommend three kingdoms. It is a fun and interesting read and least boring among the four.

Water margin or journey to the west is also fine.

Just don't begin dream of the red chamber.

Not one of the Four Great Novels, but try Moment in Peking by Lin Yutang. It’s a modern classic. Vividly captures early 20th-century Chinese life. Great for understanding culture. Written in English, it reads smoothly. Perfect complement to the classics!

The Four Great Novels are classics that in my opinion with one exception don't much relate to modern China. 金瓶梅 should also be considered a classic, it probably only isn't included because of its explicitly erotic content. I agree with vellocet that the 3 kingdoms are discouraging because of the large number of characters. On the water side really is some hard stuff, reminds me in some ways of the story of "Simplicius Simplicissimus" playing during the 30 years war in Germany.

Now the Journey to the West also doesn't directly relate to modern China. However, its characters are still ubiquitous today. You will find them in countless story books for children, and even in school textbooks. On my last trip to China, we stumbled into a small theater showing a shadow play. Guess what was the story? A scene from the Journey to the West, off course.

I recommend three kingdoms. It is a fun and interesting read and least boring among the four. I personally like it best among the four classics.