Meat Tenderization Techniques

On 8/24/2022 at 9:06 AM, abcdefg said:

Well marbled and flavorful.

It probably wasn't a yellow cow, then.

My meaning was more of where in the supply chain does this meat go.  It certainly doesn't end up in supermarkets.  The whole cow is butchered and sold, but where do the sirloins and ribeyes go?  

I had exactly the same question in the '80s. You'd walk up to the meat counter and it'd be full -- to the extent it was full at all -- with the fattiest pork imaginable. Same eating in all but the very best restaurants.

Where'd the meat go? Pigs aren't 90 percent fat. Sure, some of the good stuff would be sold under the counter to "friends," but that couldn't account for everything.

.

On 8/22/2022 at 11:06 PM, 889 said:

There's tender. Then there's that unnaturally tender almost mushy beef you often find in Cantonese dishes. I can't stand it. You do need some texture left to chew on.

On 8/23/2022 at 3:03 AM, vellocet said:

That gummy beef has been left too long in meat tenderizer.  It's an enzyme derived from papaya that breaks down the meat fibers.  It's literally digesting it so you don't have to. 

It's been a few years since I looked into it, but it seems like there are also other fruit-based enzymes that turn meat into mush, if the meat is exposed to the enzyme too long before cooking it. For those who might not know about these things, like I didn't a few years ago, there are some pretty popular meat tenderizers of this kind, at least in the U. S. They are sold in powdered form in little containers that are like salt shakers. I never tried it, because I didn't like the idea of turning any part of the meat into mush, such as the outer layer. Baking soda tenderizes a thin, outer layer of meat, but it never turns any part of the meat into mush, no matter how long it's left on it.

As far as meat tenderizers that are based on chemical reactions, I've used baking soda, sour cream and kiwi so far. I have purposely avoided chemical meat tenderizers that are based on fruits like papaya, which can turn meat into mush.

If I ate mushy meat in a Chinese restaurant, then I wouldn't go to it again. There are plenty of Chinese restaurants and even take outs that don't cook meat like this, at least in the U. S. So, I would question the restaurant, before I would question a particular Chinese cuisine, like Cantonese cuisine. Cantonese cuisine varies extremely widely from cheap take-out food to good home cooks to top-end restaurants. I've been shocked many times by how extremely differently and better top-end restaurants cook foods.

On 8/23/2022 at 3:03 AM, vellocet said:

Chinese will say it's too raw and want to put it back on the grill until it's overcooked.  ?  I let them do it, but I'm dying inside.

Unfortunately, this may be true of a lot of Chinese people eating Western steaks. My parents immigrated to the U. S. They always ordered steaks well done, not even "just" medium well. They did this, because they didn't believe that meat should have any pink in it whatsoever. Their belief was based on Chinese cooking, but it was misapplied to Western steaks. Beef in Chinese cooking doesn't look pink for many reasons. Probably the one thing I don't miss the most from eating at restaurants when I was a kid is eating a well done steak that my parents insisted on ordering me. There was only so much A1 sauce that could help save it a bit, lol.

When I was in university, several ABC friends and I went to a great restaurant/butcher/farm in rural America. The beef was as fresh as fresh could be. My best friend ordered a huge steak rare. He tried to talk me into rare too, but he could only talk me into medium rare. It was so incredible! From then on, I ate steaks medium rare! I eventually also went through a many-year phase, when I ate fresh steaks rare.

Last, I want to add that freshly killed beef is easily 10 times better than grocery-bought beef! Does anyone else agree? I've bought a whole cow with a bunch of friends. I'm talking all the most delicious cuts of steak and any portion of beef you like! It cost much less than grocery-bought beef, too. Even the ground-up beef made the most delicious hamburgers! If you ever find an opportunity like this, you won't regret going for it. (Also, I can't remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure that fresh corn-fed beef >>> fresh grass-fed beef >>> grocery-bought beef.)

On 8/24/2022 at 5:47 PM, MTH123 said:

Last, I want to add that freshly killed beef is easily 10 times better than grocery-bought beef! Does anyone else agree?

I agree some of the time. Beef aged under controlled conditions, both temperature and humidity, becomes tender and the flavor gets concentrated. Aged for weeks. That is my favorite for a delicious steak, such as a dry-aged bone-in ribeye. It is seldom sold in grocery stores, at least where I live. Often the ageing is done by a specialty steak restaurant. (Talking about US, not China.)

https://robbreport.com/food-drink/dining/dry-aging-beef-what-is-it-how-does-it-work-luxury-steak-2858502/ 

On 8/24/2022 at 4:39 AM, Baihande said:

@MTH123: Wonder why you don't mention the simplest mechanical tenderizing: Flatten the meat with a hammer as Italian and Vienna cooks do. You don't need any knives, the force of the blow will break up the muscle fibers.

Good question. I have a couple of tools like this, although they may not be exactly what you're talking about. I think smashing meat as flat as flat can be changes texture so much that it isn't for me. I just want meat to be more tender, not almost pulverized so-to-speak.

But, now that you're making me think about it more, I'm wondering whether meat may be smashed flat in Chinese breaded, super-thin, deep-fried pork chops or chicken. But, I don't know. I can also see other meat cutting and tenderizing techniques being used.

If I'm misunderstanding your meaning, please clarify. As my original post indicates, I use both Chinese and non-Chinese techniques that seem to be universal, meaning any techniques that are universal enough to work for Chinese cooking.

On 8/24/2022 at 5:58 PM, abcdefg said:

Beef aged under controlled conditions, both temperature and humidity, becomes tender and the flavor gets concentrated. Aged for weeks. That is my favorite for a delicious steak, such as a dry-aged bone-in ribeye. It is seldom sold in grocery stores, at least where I live. Often the ageing is done by a specialty steak restaurant. (Talking about US, not China.)

Oh, yes! I always forget about this. The only time I ever had this was in my early 20s (several decades ago) when I was on a date. I had never been into anywhere near as fancy of a restaurant. It was $50 to $60 just for a steak. It was exquisite, mouthwatering and tender. It was utterly shockingly good. I always forget about this, because I got such sticker shock! It was way out of my price range. (I insisted on paying my half.) Fast forward over a decade. Chinese food in high-end restaurants is a lot cheaper, the variety is far greater, and I like it more overall. So, figuring out how to make such wonderful aged beef isn't something I'll probably ever do.

Ribeye is a cut of steak that has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. It's my favorite cut of steak. So, I can't help that the posts that mentioned it caught my eye. It's "marbled" with fat and has more flavor. According to Samin Nosrat's Salt Fat Acid Heat, fat has more flavor than muscle. I didn't know that. Did any of you know that? Is that why my skinny Chinese friends fight over fat at times?

I've found that ribeye is better for stir fry too, not just as Western steaks on a grill. So, I slice it up for any stir fry I want to do. It's more tender than most other cuts of meat without doing anything more than cutting across the grain. But, my husband and I have gotten away from beef in general. For me, it's because the prices have gotten so high. For my husband, it's because I'm cooking more yummy Chinese foods, which tend to favor pork, chicken and seafood (as well as vegetables).

Last, I want to say that it took me a very long time to figure out different cuts of meat. Any meat on or very near ribs tends to be more flavorful to me. I'm referring to beef or pork. If it doesn't cost much more than other cuts of meat, then I'm willing to buy it.

"So, I would question the restaurant, before I would question a particular Chinese cuisine"

When I say "Cantonese" I mean restaurants in S China and HK using local beef. My impression is that Cantonese like their beef really soft.

@MTH123: Think of saltimbocca alla romana or Wiener Schnitzel. There, an already thin cut slice of veal is additionally tenderized by hitting with a special hammer with a square surface at the head (made of wood, stainless steel,..). This doesn't result in a squash, only in an increase of the flat area. For instance, Turkish butchers use this method for lamb  chops (avoiding hitting the bone, only flattening the meat). I never tried, but you should be able to cut such a flattened slice of meat into stripes for Chinese cooking.

On 8/24/2022 at 8:26 PM, MTH123 said:

Last, I want to say that it took me a very long time to figure out different cuts of meat.

The cuts of meat are different in China, even the primal cuts. It's not just a matter of naming, but it's a matter of butchering conventions 部位切法。(Admittedly, there is some overlap with the west.)

https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1696139621719217425&wfr=spider&for=pc   

On 8/25/2022 at 7:36 AM, Baihande said:

Think of saltimbocca alla romana or Wiener Schnitzel. There, an already thin cut slice of veal is additionally tenderized by hitting with a special hammer with a square surface at the head (made of wood, stainless steel,..).

China has a long tradition of pounded meat. That method of tenderization is often used before cooking in a recipe that calls for steaming of ingredients. There, the meat is typically "stuffed" into pieces of hollowed out vegetables. The idea is to have the meat and the vegetables become perfectly cooked at just the same time. 

In Yunnan (especially southern Yunnan) one also finds pounded raw beef salads along the lines of Laotian Larb. (These are popular in parts of Thailand as well.) Can be delicious with the right selection of shallots, small hot peppers, lime juice and handfuls of mint. (Often supplemented with wild herbs.) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larb  

On 8/25/2022 at 7:36 AM, Baihande said:

@MTH123: Think of saltimbocca alla romana or Wiener Schnitzel. There, an already thin cut slice of veal is additionally tenderized by hitting with a special hammer with a square surface at the head (made of wood, stainless steel,..). This doesn't result in a squash, only in an increase of the flat area. For instance, Turkish butchers use this method for lamb  chops (avoiding hitting the bone, only flattening the meat).

On 8/25/2022 at 9:06 AM, abcdefg said:

China has a long tradition of pounded meat. That method of tenderization is often used before cooking in a recipe that calls for steaming of ingredients. There, the meat is typically "stuffed" into pieces of hollowed out vegetables. The idea is to have the meat and the vegetables become perfectly cooked at just the same time. 

I found two meat tenderizing techniques along these lines in Irene Kuo's The Key to Chinese Cooking. (I should have re-skimmed this cookbook, before I started this thread.) One of the techniques is to use the back of a cleaver to pound meat on both sides in a crisscross pattern. The meat is thoroughly pounded. Does anyone how it’s cooked in Chinese foods? I’m guessing that the only potential way I’ve had meat like this in Chinese foods is breaded and deep fried.

The other technique is to use the back of one or two cleavers to pound meat into mince or to pound already ground meat. I’ve seen this plenty of times in Chinese shows. @abcdefg, is this what you were referring to? My mom made cucumbers stuffed with mince many times. It’s hard to conjure up some memories, but I think my mom started with already ground meat and did indeed pound it with the back of a cleaver. She may have skipped the pounding at times, too.

I probably won’t use either of these techniques, because my old muscles probably couldn’t handle them. (It’s probably why they weren’t in my notes either, lol.)

When I make Chinese meatballs, I put already ground meat in a food processor. I cook the meatballs in soup in an electric pressure cooker. The meatballs turn out to be extremely tender.

On 8/24/2022 at 10:40 PM, 889 said:

When I say "Cantonese" I mean restaurants in S China and HK using local beef. My impression is that Cantonese like their beef really soft.

I would probably really like it. It's hard for me to gauge what you mean. You probably aren't referring to beef that has been made "mushy" by a papaya enzyme. So, I'm guessing that you're referring to beef that has been slippery coated. When I had it in a restaurant in Taiwan, it kind of reminded me of a great restaurant (not Chinese) that was known for "melt in your mouth" "barbeque" pork ribs. But, the beef was even more tender and even more like "melt in your mouth." I was wow'd by it.

On 8/25/2022 at 10:48 AM, MTH123 said:

One of the techniques is to use the back of a cleaver to pound meat on both sides in a crisscross pattern. The meat is thoroughly pounded. Does anyone how it’s cooked in Chinese foods? I’m guessing that the only potential way I’ve had meat like this in Chinese foods is breaded and deep fried.

Many other methods besides deep fried. But I'm getting out of my depth here; entering territory where I'm somewhat uncertain. Afraid I cannot advance this discussion. Please excuse me as I bow out. Main practical thing to remember is that Chinese don't eat much ground beef except for McDonald's. Ground meat 摸肉 usually means ground pork, at least on the Mainland. 

On 8/25/2022 at 8:09 PM, abcdefg said:

Many other methods besides deep fried. But I'm getting out of my depth here; entering territory where I'm somewhat uncertain. Afraid I cannot advance this discussion. Please excuse me as I bow out. Main practical thing to remember is that Chinese don't eat much ground beef except for McDonald's. Ground meat 摸肉 usually means ground pork, at least on the Mainland. 

lol, I'm obviously out of my depth, which is why I've been speculating and asking about it. I'm trying to pick people's brains so-to-speak. So, no worries!

When I used to eat lunch boxes (便当盒) in Taiwan, such as ones based on lunch boxes served on trains (which seems to be a thing), a seemingly common choice was breaded, deep-fried, very, very thin pork chops. The pork chops were maybe 1/4-inch thick and tender.

The lunch boxes cost less than McDonald's and were better tasting. There were many things besides pork chops in them, like rice, a variety of vegetables, probably including a little dried tofu, also a tea egg, etc. Of course, the lunch boxes that cost more than McDonald's were even better by a distance.

Yes, all the ground meat that I use in Chinese cooking is ground pork, including Chinese meatballs (in Lion's Head Soup). My mom used ground beef, ground chicken and ground turkey at times. They may have just been substitutes for ground pork for whatever reason, like what happened to be in the refrigerator at the time (ground beef) or when she was on a healthier food kick (ground chicken and ground turkey). But, sadly, I only remember a few of her recipes. I don't keep recipes in my brain like my mom did.

Speaking of McDonald's, when I was young, I was surprised that it was in Taiwan. Way back when, a McDonald's meal cost about $5 when a much tastier Chinese lunch cost only $2. For example, I could fill my stomach with great dumplings for $2. My young self couldn't understand why McDonald's could thrive in Taiwan. (I especially couldn't understand Domino's pizza being in Taiwan. So, what do I know?)

On 8/26/2022 at 7:49 PM, MTH123 said:

When I used to eat lunch boxes (便当盒) in Taiwan, such as ones based on lunch boxes served on trains (which seems to be a thing), a seemingly common choice was breaded, deep-fried, very, very thin pork chops. The pork chops were maybe 1/4-inch thick and tender.

I think these might originally be Japanese (tongkatsu.) Typically they are pounded thin, like veal cutlets. Very large Japanese influence in Taiwan cooking. 

Interesting post, @Steven J Owens. Thank you and welcome to the forum. 

I no longer do much Chinese cooking, having moved back to the US at the start of Covid. The best beef, at least in Kunming, was usually in the small Muslim 回族 butcher shops. The one I frequented close to where I lived would bring in half a cow once a week, early Wednesday morning, and hang it up outside on a heavy wooden frame. The butcher would cut your meat to order if you came to shop that day.  They told me the beef was sourced from a farm nearby. 

Next door was a small restaurant, 6 or 8 tables, open front, that specialized in beef noodles. It was run by the butcher's adult daughter. You ordered at a counter and paid according to how much meat you wanted in your dish. Ordered by weight. These were thin-cut left-over pieces from the butchering next door. You could have a free refill on the noodles or the broth (not the meat.) 

They always had a line of savvy locals outside just before and during lunchtime. Inexpensive and delicious. 

But I did lots of velveting meat for added tenderness when living in China, pork plus beef. Usually just sliced it thin and mixed it with some starch 稀豆粉, soy sauce 生酱 and cooking wine 料酒。I never used baking soda at home, though I realize it is popular as a restaurant technique. It just wasn't necessary and it was so easy to overdo it and ruin the texture of the meat. 

The beef I bought at the supermarket usually went into the pressure cooker, not the wok.