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Posted

This sentence is from a book for Chinese learners of English and is supposed to mean that the boy grabbed AT the frog but wasn't able to catch it.  Can that be the meaning in Chinese or does it mean that he DID catch it?

  • Good question! 1
Posted

The sentence was MEANT to say that the boy reached out to catch the frog but did not quite manage because it jumped away.

However, several people who know Chinese natively or not tell me that it cannot mean that but only that he did catch it

and then somehow it got away.  So the question is who is right: the author of this or the people I have asked. Your

translation agrees with the latter, because you say the boy CAUGHT the frog.  But the author meant it to mean that he

did NOT quite.

Posted

I see.  Even in English the sentence is a tiny bit ambiguous.  It could mean:  The boy caught at the frog but the frog eluded the boy and jumped away.  Or:  The boy caught the frog, but then the frog escaped the boy's grip and jumped away. On one interpretation, you have not caught a frog if it then jumps away.  On another, you can have caught a frog even if it then jumps away.

 

I think you are belaboring this.  The important point is that at the end, the boy does not have the frog.  Does it really make any difference which version was exactly correct?  

Posted
On 10/28/2025 at 1:29 PM, PoxOnAllHoaxes said:

The sentence was MEANT to say that the boy reached out to catch the frog but did not quite manage because it jumped away.

However, several people who know Chinese natively or not tell me that it cannot mean that but only that he did catch it

and then somehow it got away.  So the question is who is right: the author of this or the people I have asked. Your

translation agrees with the latter, because you say the boy CAUGHT the frog.  But the author meant it to mean that he

did NOT quite.

这个男孩捉住一只青蛙,但是青蛙又跳跑了 = The boy CAUGHT a frog, but the frog jumped away (like Moshen said);

If you wanna say the boy wanted to catch the frog but did not quite manage. You need to add a word expressing intent, like ‘想(want)’, "试图(try)”,etc, before “捉住”:

这个男孩“想(want)”捉住“那只(the)”青蛙,但是青蛙又跳跑了;

BTW,  "跳跑" is the phrase that just feels wrong to anyone who’s had proper language training, even if the average person wouldn’t bat an eye. It raises some doubts about the author’s native fluency, unless that’s a typo.

Posted

This is not MY sentence.  It is from a book by a Chinese author for Chinese learners of English.  Thank you.

Posted
On 10/29/2025 at 3:00 PM, PoxOnAllHoaxes said:

This is not MY sentence.

Yes, I knew that. I just wanna answer your question “who is right” — Moshen and the people you‘ve asked are right. 

Posted
On 10/28/2025 at 9:08 AM, Moshen said:

I think you are belaboring this.  The important point is that at the end, the boy does not have the frog.  Does it really make any difference which version was exactly correct?  

 

I would say yes. I can't speak for the Chinese, but at least in English, there is a distinct difference between whether he actually catches the frog, or just tries. You might not find it important, but for a learner wanting to grasp the subtleties of the language, I would say it is a very reasonable question, especially on a language forum. I don't really understand why you would belittle the OP's question.

 

 

Posted

It's the complement 住 in 捉住 that reads to me like he really did grab hold, however briefly; otherwise, lots of verbs can mean both to attempt or complete, like 自杀 as one well known example. Then the 又 suggests the frog is getting away from being caught. Think they have given you a ropey English version.

  • Helpful 1
Posted

What about without the resultative complement?  If we say 这个男孩捉了一只青蛙,但是青蛙跳跑了 (or anything like this), do you find that THIS can

mean that the boy reached out to grab the frog but didn't quite get a hold of it?  Thank you.

Posted
On 11/2/2025 at 3:06 PM, PoxOnAllHoaxes said:

What about without the resultative complement?  If we say 这个男孩捉了一只青蛙,但是青蛙跳跑了 (or anything like this), do you find that THIS can

mean that the boy reached out to grab the frog but didn't quite get a hold of it?  Thank you.

The key is that Chinese uses a particle, ‘了’ (le), to show an action is complete. So, ‘捉了’ literally means ‘caught-and-done.’ It’s a statement of fact: the boy successfully had the frog in his hands. The ‘但是青蛙最终逃跑了’ part is what happens after that success.
If you wanna say he tried and failed, you’d remove the ‘了’ and add a word for ‘attempt,’ like ‘想去捉’ (xiǎng qù zhuō), which means ‘wanted to go catch.’ Without the ‘了’, the action is left incomplete.

Posted

I don't disagree with you and in fact one native speaker I asked who is not a linguist agrees with you.  On the other hand, there are linguists who are native speakers who insist that this CAN mean what I asked about. In fact since 1984 there has been a VAST and HEATED debate about just such sentences in Chinese linguistics.  So I am trying to get some insight into this by asking as many native speakers as I can find.  The claim in 1984 was that any and all action verbs of Chinese can be used to describe an UN-completed action without any qualification, tho the author (Jim Tai) added that some speakers reject such sentences.  His examples were sentences like A killed (殺了) B twice but B still didn't die.  Later it was more or less agreed that such sentences are possible but only with adverbs like 'twice'.  The latest article on this which just came out claims again that it is much more general, while also admitting that many speakers balk at such sentences.  Crucially, the linguist I asked about this recently does NOT study grammar at all and so has no stake in this (or knowledge of the literature) and he is the one who gave me the sentence I asked about here (about the frog that according to him did NOT get caught).  So this is NOT something I made up and there has to be some explanation for why MANY linguists feel that such sentences are perfectly normal--while others feel the reverse.  Sometimes (even often) non-professionals and/or foreigners can have an idea that those closer to the subject miss (forest for the trees) so it occurred to me that a linguist who doesnt know that much Chinese (me) and people who know Chinese but are not professional linguists MAY possibly come up with the answer.   I might add that learners of Chinese (and those who teach them) widely believe the original claim (which is definitely a myth) that ANY action verb in Chinese can either refer to a competed or an UN-completed action.  So apart from the scientific interest, settling this issue should help actual learners of the language.  This ALSO bears on the question of attitude: there are many people, both foreigners and Chinese, who are convinced that the Chinese THINK differently from Westerners and use precisely myths such as this to argue for that.  It would be good to refute that too.

Posted

I’m not sure if Jim Tai’s idea was translated right, but I’m 100% sure the statement ‘all Chinese action verbs can describe an unfinished action without any qualification’ is wrong—especially that part about ‘without any qualification.’

 

Based on your example, I believe Jim Tai’s real point is that Chinese verbs are action-focused. They describe just the action itself, separate from the result. That’s why his classic example, ‘A killed B twice, but B didn’t die,’ works. The action of killing happened, but the result of dying didn’t.

 

It’s like the English verb ‘eat.’ If I just say ‘I eat an apple,’ it sounds incomplete. You don’t know if it happened. English fixes this with verb endings (like -ed). Chinese verbs are like a blank slate; you need extra words like ‘le’ to add the result.

 

Now, let’s apply this to your frog sentence. The key is the word ‘但是’ (but). ‘But’ has to create a real twist, something unexpected.

  • If the boy never caught the frog, is it unexpected that it hopped away? No, that’s normal. So why use ‘but’?
  • But what if the boy actually caught it? Now, if it escapes, that’s a twist!

See? The word ‘但是’ only makes sense if the frog was caught first. The sentence sets up a result (‘caught’) and then immediately reverses it. It’s a perfect real-world example of Tai’s theory.

  • Like 1
Posted

I wast want to share that Jin Yong 's novels are a great learning material for becoming familiar with these issues. There are so many action verbs in the fight scenes, and at first it's very hard to tell whether a blow actually landed or a person actually died.

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